On The Desk Talking ETF’s, Sims Ltd and a Lightning Round of Buy, Hold or Sell
This weeks, On the Desk, Ben looks in to the investment options provided by ETF’s and takes a deeper dive into what makes up Cloud Computing ETF (CLDD). Tom presents a stock review on Sims Ltd (SGM), Ben and Tom face off in a Buy/Hold/Sell lightning round, and Chris answers a couple of listener questions.
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Transcripts
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SPEAKERS
Tom Wegner, Chris Conway, Ben O'Leary
Chris Conway 00:00
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Tom Wegner 00:09
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Ben O'Leary 00:22
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Chris Conway 00:38
Ladies and gentlemen, before we get to the podcast please note that the presentation is general in nature only before acting you should take into account your personal financial circumstances. If you would like to read Marcus Today's full disclaimer, you can find it on the Marcus Today website. Now over to the boys. Hello, everyone and welcome to another edition of the on the desk podcast. We were way last week. Apologies for that everyone's back in the saddle, though and pleased to be here as always joined by my friends. Yes. Now my friends, Thomas Wagner.
Tom Wegner 01:06
Hi, Christopher
Chris Conway 01:07
And Benjamin O'Leary.
Ben O'Leary 01:08
Hi, Chris you're gonna make that joke every week?
Chris Conway 01:10
That I have friends? Yes, I am. The only thing that keeps me going.
Ben O'Leary 01:14
Very good.
Chris Conway 01:15
Alright, quick wrap of what's going on. Marcus has very kindly pointed out to us that wrapping up what's going on in the market is pointless because we do it on about five other podcasts. So I just wanted to get straight to the heart of the matter. And what's really going on this weekend is all about the Fed. It drops tonight the decision at 5am. It's incredibly important. And I wrote an article earlier in the week about just why it is so important even though it is largely priced in expected and known that the Fed will raise by 25 basis points. The reason why is because at the end of the day, a decade's long monetary experiment that the world has embarked upon is about to start being unwound. It's a seismic event. And as we've said before, on this podcast all of us that the change from talking about raising interest rates to actually doing it could have a profound and long lasting impact on markets. Just a couple of pieces of data that I wanted to reiterate from the article earlier in the week. Never before has the Fed raised rates when the VIX volatility index has been so high. So every day this month, the VIX has closed at 30 or higher, which is well ahead of the 200 day moving average, which sits near 20. And during the past four rate hike cycles dating back to 1990. The VIX average only 17.4 On the day of the Feds first rate increase and slightly below that level in the previous 30 days. So they're raising against an incredibly volatile backdrop. The Fed is also raising amid what is potentially a slowing growth environment, normally they are raising into a very hot market. That's the whole point of why they raise interest rates is to slow down economic activity, they there is a strong argument that they're raising now into a slowing growth environment. So the Fed is about to do something that is fairly unprecedented, and where all of the expectation that things are just going to roll along and 25 basis points doesn't matter. I don't necessarily believe that we were all saying on the podcast this morning, that whilst we expect 25 basis points, we all think there's something else coming there's something in the press conference or Powell will say something, or there might be some insights that are offered up or even the analytical reaction to the Fed that could upset the applecart and create some more volatility. So just wanted to put that out there and highlight just how important tonight's fed interest rate decision not just tonight and for the event itself and for the press conference that follows. But what is likely to come in future months and even years, as as I was saying before this monetary policy experiment that the world embarked upon post the GFC begins to be unwound. Alright, that is enough waffle for me to some more punchy stuff. Hopefully from Ben and Tom, we'll start with Ben, he's going to talk to you ladies and gentlemen, about some of his favourite ETFs why he likes them, perhaps why they're made ups the way they are, and what benefits can be had from them. So over to you, Ben.
Ben O'Leary 04:21
Thank you, Chris. ETFs have been a bit of a controversial topic in markets today over the last few years, but they they've shown that they are much more than just an exposure to the market, which is the kind of old school thing so we know that they're a good way to get exposure to a market or specific indicee It makes investing simpler and more accessible for the public. You spoken Chris about how you've put money into ETFs for your children. That's right long term. So you can get the global equity market essentially with the MSCI World Index correct. So there's a really good purpose for them there. And you can also use them to gain easy exposure to short term trends. We spoke a couple weeks ago about wood. Chris after you mentioned that Russia provides quite a significant portion of the world's lumber that was the global timber and forestry ETF, which gives you global exposure to companies that produce forest products, agricultural products, paper and packaging products ETFs exist in some capacity to gain exposure to essentially any commodity that you could think of. There is even plans I was writing about today for a breakfast ETF goodness me Can you guys imagine or could you guess what might be in a breakfast ETF.
Chris Conway 05:30
Chickens for eggs, pigs for bacon and wheat for cereal.
Tom Wegner 05:36
I wasn't sure if it was going to be very obvious. I was thinking it was it stuff that opens in the morning our time a little bit left of centre. I wasn't actually thinking the dietary components of a breakfast.
Chris Conway 05:46
You kno me, I love my food. I was just going straight for the juice.
Tom Wegner 05:49
Yeah, do we have what would have been Inghams New Farm. Those sorts of...
Chris Conway 05:54
No, straight up commodities.
Ben O'Leary 05:56
You're a long way off the reservation Tom, as anyone that follows commodities will know coffee and orange juice are highly traded commodity contracts. So...
Chris Conway 06:05
Anyone, that has seen the movie Trading Places with Eddie Murphy would know that the Clarence speaks in the orange juice contract sorry, that is an old reference...
Ben O'Leary 06:12
Or the Pit which is a documentary on Netflix today you go which is in the commodity pits a very interesting worth of watch but yes, the the breakfast ETF tracks coffee, orange juice, wait and lean hog futures.
Chris Conway 06:24
Oh wasn't far off!
Ben O'Leary 06:25
Not too far. Coffee, orange juice, bread and back and basically been how do I purchase this still, it's still in the works. But you can purchase the various components at your local Lowe's or he could. But that is not what I like about ETFs. What I like is the ability to play themes in the long term that you think you're going to be really strong in the future. So there's a few that I hold personally, they include the Vanek global clean energy ETF CL Ma, the beta shares, cloud computing ETF co d d beta shares global cybersecurity ETF, which is hacking has talked a lot about that. And another one Henry's talked about is the ETFs battery tech and lithium ETF, ACDC.
Chris Conway 07:08
Best best name ever for an ETF ACDC.
Ben O'Leary 07:11
Little added bonus of ETFs that they sometimes have a fun little ticker. But there are long term trends that I think I'm comfortable holding on to for the next 1020 years. I think cloud computing is going to be begun in 20 years. And it is now so cybersecurity. So clean energy, and so is battery tech. So that's the kind of way that I like to play ETFs. And because of the long term timeframe, the entry points in the timelines don't matter quite as much as they might, if you're trading something on a short term, adding periodically makes it easy. So you can make it a really long term easy. just top it up investment for your future, which I think is a really nice investing style.
Tom Wegner 07:50
I think one of the other things to touch on them. When you talk about incremental additions to that investment is it's a lot easier when the prices aren't as volatile. And that is something that can be really comforting for investors starting out, when you just have that small portion of every month you contribute to that ETF or something you don't get or do I invest in this month, it's gone up so much that might suit some anxiety about that incremental investment and help that discipline with the process.
Ben O'Leary 08:20
Yep, they're certainly a lot less volatile typically than some stocks maybe. But I will dive into one because I promised Chris I would a bit of a look under the hood of what you actually get when you invest in one of these ETFs. So I've chosen what I think is my favourite, and that is BetaShares cloud computing, which is the CLDD I just think cloud computing is a pretty obvious long term trend for the future. It's been around since February 2021. It gives exposure to the cloud computing megatrend. That is something that is not particularly accessible in Australia. If you look at the biggest failing companies you've got next dc which has exposure to it. But then outside of that you kind of got to play around the small caps if you want to go in on that thing. To be eligible for inclusion in the portfolio of the ETF a company's share of revenue from cloud computing services must meet a minimum threshold. There's 35 stocks held in the ETF the biggest four holdings with five to 6% in each of them at Akamai Technologies, Mimecast, Qualls and workday, and then you work down the list, you say a few more familiar names four and a half percent and Dropbox 4.3%. In Salesforce, and even some smaller holdings in the likes of Netflix, Amazon, Microsoft zoom, kind of displays the diversification effect of it you're not all in on one company you're in on a theme that is going to play out and if one goes really well one goes bad it all kind of balances out on the admin side of things to round it out. They have semi annual distributions though, as a team that is going to be primarily growth sauce, you're not going to expect much in the way of income or distributions. There is a management fee of point five 7% per annum, which is low compared to manage funds. As we know, which is one of the big benefits of ETFs, they have quite low in fees, and expenses on top of that are capped at point 1% per annum. So that is my wrap up of the cloud computing ETF.
Chris Conway 10:13
Very nice been well done. Just some comments there. Yeah, when ETFs were first being launched, or whether you guys remember, but the knock on them was that they were a low intelligence way of getting exposure to the market. What I meant by that is, you know, everyone fancied themselves as a stock picker. And basically, this was just taking a broad lump of stocks, packaging them all together, and selling them to investors, they've become far more sophisticated, far more intelligent, far more pointed very quickly to Yeah, absolutely very well, a lot of money will tend to do that people will create products where the money goes. But yeah, the game has changed a lot. And, you know, as you eloquently pointed out, now, you can get great exposure to some really niche themes, and really cool stuff that you just can't get at a stock level. And also, international exposure that oftentimes way in Australia, we simply don't have those mature industries in our jurisdiction. So being able to go and buy an ETF that has some maybe extreme exposure, but a lot of international exposure to these amazing themes that are, you know, blowing up around the world. You just can't do that in the stock level all the time. So yeah, they have become incredibly powerful. I quite like them. Don't get me wrong, I'm still a stock picker, I still love doing that. But the right time in the right place. ETFs can be great investments.
Ben O'Leary 10:16
And they do which is kind of what Tom was saying before have quite a bit more of a sleep at night factor than stocks do.
Chris Conway 11:42
Anything that's put into a basket? Well, yeah, one stock he he can be there 30% of the day, but an ETF generally won't, unless it's a crypto.
Ben O'Leary 11:50
Nnd if you essentially rule out the doomsday scenario of a company that goes into DePaola, yeah. So you can't you can't go to zero companies within the basket and go to zero, you're going to lose significant amounts of money. But the probabilities of every company within that basket goes to zero.
Chris Conway 12:08
Unless you I certainly like not to put the kibosh on on the cloud computing ETF but if a new technology was born, all of a sudden the cloud was obsolete. But again, probabilities of that...
Ben O'Leary 12:18
Or even then, are we gonna say Microsoft knocks if they're gonna zero? We've got problems.
Chris Conway 12:24
Yeah exactly. Right. Very good. Ben. Well done. Thank you for those insights. Tom, over to you for a stock review. If I'm not mistaken.
Tom Wegner 12:32
I have done a stock review and not a book review. Today, I'm looking at seems limited. And some of you might have seen this as my recent buy, hold sell. So it might be a bit of a rehash for those people. But for those who haven't, it was one of the best performers of the February results season and is currently up around 50%. In the last month, a world without waste to preserve our planet is its mission statements. So a really nice slogan to fuel that ESG funnel that's gaining a lot more attraction recently. It is a metals and electronics recycling company at its core. And the majority of its earnings come from its metals and sa recycling segments, which are currently benefiting from a bunch of macro macro tailwind. And I'll just run through a few and then give you a quick conclusion. Scrap metal prices, if you haven't been paying attention have been extremely buoyant, as the steel industry shifts to using more scrap. We've also got those geopolitical tensions adding to higher prices as well. We've got the global steel industry that makes up around 8% of the world's carbon emissions. And that number is likely to be a lot lower in the next few years, mainly because we've got some legislation, and that's happening domestically and abroad looking to cut emissions in that industry. With a focus on decarbonisation, there's something like close to 30% of steel capacity that's already covered by a corporate net zero target. So that's really cool for the whole decarbonisation green theme that is gaining a lot of attention and attraction at the moment. Strong infrastructure spending also helping, we've got the federal government and they recently named green steel as one of its six technology areas that will help Australia reach net zero emissions by 2050. So some legislation from the Australian government, especially helping there, we've also got the Chinese government ramping up infrastructure spending as they pivot towards growth. I don't know if that you guys have seen but they did recently downgraded GDP expectations so they're really trying to pump up the economy there. The brokers like it majority have a buyer outperform rating. On a peer comparison, it's got a slightly better yield than BlueScope Steel, which is another operator in the space. It's got about $240 million in cash on its balance sheet. So it's got a lot of options. It can explore m&a options. distribution options, looking at growth targets as well. For conclusion, its role as a key player in the circular economy so that recycled products coupled with decarbonisation, and ESG themes position it really well for the future fundamentals not extremely impressive, although performance is all about the pricing of its metals products, which remain really buoyant and got tailwind from geopolitical events happening there as well. Prices are guided by several macro trends at the moment, we've got infrastructure spending, decarbonisation and cloud infrastructure recycling. So that cloud infrastructure recycling, if you've got these big service centres, you need servers destroyed. They are the guys that you call a peer comparison BSL to BlueScope Steel, that ticker there presents a little bit better on a fundamental basis, but it may not scratch that ESG in the same way seems does. I've said hold. And guys, if you want to get exposure to the middle space, Rick's recycling, circular economy, these guys really know how to do it well. And the they've done quite well in the last month up 50%. So want to check out.
Chris Conway 16:15
Very nice work. Tom, just a little kicker to that I have some friends that work in steel, one of them is actually a junk recycler, just like Sims is. And he is telling me that there's no scrap around, there's none. That's why prices are so high, a lot of people just can't get it. And when they do get it, it's out the door. And there's no there's nothing in storage. There's no inventory of scrap around at the moment. And it is because of that ESG and decarbonisation push that all these companies don't grab the scrap quicker than they'll grab some of the new inputs that are dirty, or they'll just go for the scrap. And that's what's been driving prices up. So really interesting tailwinds there.
Ben O'Leary 16:57
You seem to a becoming someone that has a friend in every location that we're interested in.
Chris Conway 17:02
I just did I basically just steal steal, I've got two mates and steal. So I add lumber. Same guy, actually, same guy. So he used to work for a steel company, then he worked for the company that I can't say, I do ever made the works for BSL as well. So I've only got three friends, two friends. Not including us. We're friends. Right. Alright, Tom, there was a question from a member we finally had some questions on the OTD at marcus today.com.au. Of course, the OTD stands for on the desk for the uninitiated. Tom, given that you just did a buy, hold sell the question from the member I'm paraphrasing here was when you're coming to your conclusions with your buy holding cells, what is the thing that you place most emphasis on. So obviously, you do a review of the company. Look at the stock box, the financials, do the short analysis, you have a look technical look, you know, if you were carving up that pie of 60% goes to x y Zed just the way you like to look at stocks. I know this is the methodology that Marcus has taught all of us. But when you're doing it, what are the things you like to focus on and put the most emphasis on when coming to your conclusions.
Tom Wegner 18:10
And you'll like this point, Chris. But one of the things that he just he can't go past is that technical picture. And I know, you look at on a much shorter timeframe, I look at it from a year perspective. And it's quite reassuring when a stock is at bottom left to top right performer on a year long timeframe. And you've talked at length about how the price has so much information in it. It's not everything. And that's why we like to look at fundamentals results, shorting invest institutional interest, and but a lot of that can be distilled into the price. And if if it's not showing up on an attractive technical picture, you've got to second guess why? Or what information is out there that may have slipped through my filter or whatever filter and that is that is influencing that price. So I think number one, we're going with that longer, longer term, medium term technical picture. Yep. The second one coming out of February results season, you can't look past how it performed. If it if it beat expectations or if margins were getting squeezed. And that was that that was a big thing of this season is margins, you've got higher costs, how are they managing those? Are they passing them on to the consumer? Can they pass them on consumer? What are their contracts? Like? are they struggling with the prop supply chains that is all very recent and happening now. So the other point was how it was performing and results and seems for example, they are performed had a really good run and that just lends to a lot more confidence in making a decision.
Chris Conway 19:54
Nice one,
Ben O'Leary 19:55
a follow up question without notice for you calm that combines the two of those factors The Sims and that question. It sounded like you're optimistic hold on Sims. What would it take for that to flick over the border into BUY?
Tom Wegner 20:11
Pretty much what I was telling Chris, that technical picture needed to be a little bit more attractive. So the chart, and you can see this in the buy, hold, sell. It's done really well in the last few months. But it was a really bumpy jumbly. There was no obvious technical picture for that company.
Chris Conway 20:30
I'm looking at the chart myself, it was sideways for a very long time and then finally broke out. Yeah.
Tom Wegner 20:35
And you think this company is doing a lot of really good things. It's in the recycling space, it's geared to a lot of future themes, creating this in a product where they're keeping metal and recycling in the, in the system as long as they can. They're geared to this cloud infrastructure recycling, there's a lot of really good things you think, would lend to a more attractive technical picture. It's not, they did have some higher costs in their results, but they were able to be managed. But then back to the question, just like to see a bit more of an attractive technical picture.
Chris Conway 21:11
So again, follow up to the follow up six months from now, it's still been performing well, you're, you're all in on this one. Like if that if that chart looks good. Still, in six months, diamond is trending higher, you're bang, you're ready to go.
Tom Wegner 21:21
Yeah. And in that six months, we would be close to another trading update. And that coincided doing well. And taking there's another couple of things that point out if a stock's trending up into a trading or half year update, and they've had an announcement and all their announcements have had positive reactions. There's some good macro tailwinds. The pricing for the metals and the products is elevated, that sort of stuff. You go you think, well, that's perfect storm, by it. Maybe before results if you're feeling a bit more of a gamble, but if the charts looking well, six months time, yeah, you would be hard pressed to look past it.
Chris Conway 21:56
You are sounding like a disciple of Mine, Tom, it's all about probabilities. It really is you get that trend. And you're talking about strong announcements, strong results, trend looks good people are buying it brokers like it. So becomes about probabilities, what's the probability that they're going to have a cleaner, or if you've got this string of good results and good evidence and good data, I would say that the probabilities of hanging having a claim or a lower whereas you know, some other investors like to buy companies that have just had big clients and a down 30%. And they're betting on the probability they won't have a cleaner the next cycle out. So just a different way of looking at markets. But yeah, not to say that some of the rubbish that I talked to you about it seems to be paying off.
Tom Wegner 22:36
I do listen, sometimes.
Chris Conway 22:38
Sometimes.
Chris Conway 22:38
Interesting to the difference. The slight change in weighting you put on one thing or the other mix, I put probably a little bit less weighting on the technical side more just want to make sure it's not gone down. Yep. sideways to up or clear. Based on everything else there. I'd probably be looking now rather than Yeah, yeah, six months time and not not to say one is right and one is wrong. It's just interesting. That little change has quite a big impact on outcomes.
Chris Conway 23:05
Like here. He says, that's what makes a market and that was a great question from that member. So well done. Gents, lightning round and then we'll follow up with another question that was directed to me. But this is a lightning round. It's buy hold sell. I don't need any explanation. It's shoot from the hip. Are we buying holding or selling Gold? Tom first.
Tom Wegner 23:25
Sell
Chris Conway 23:26
Ben?
Ben O'Leary 23:26
Hold
Chris Conway 23:27
Oil?
Tom Wegner 23:28
Buy
Ben O'Leary 23:30
Buy
Chris Conway 23:30
Nickel?
Ben O'Leary 23:31
I have to wait for it to open?
Tom Wegner 23:33
Yeah. It's not even open.
Chris Conway 23:34
It is BUY HOLD SELL.
Ben O'Leary 23:35
If it opens down? Ah have they put limits in?
Chris Conway 23:37
15% I believe
Ben O'Leary 23:38
I will sell.
Tom Wegner 23:39
Yes, sell
Chris Conway 23:41
Australian equities?
Chris Conway 23:42
Buy
Tom Wegner 23:42
Buy
Chris Conway 23:43
US equities?
Ben O'Leary 23:45
Buy
Tom Wegner 23:45
Buy
Chris Conway 23:46
Bitcoin?
Ben O'Leary 23:47
Buy.
Tom Wegner 23:49
Sell
Chris Conway 23:50
Wine.
Ben O'Leary 23:51
Buy.
Chris Conway 23:52
No to drink to invest?
Tom Wegner 23:53
Ark. I have no idea.
Chris Conway 23:55
BUY HOLD SELL Tom...
Tom Wegner 23:56
Hold
Ben O'Leary 23:56
I will put a moment on that wine, I think is not bad, because it's always finite. So if you get quite high quality stuff, they're not making any more.
Chris Conway 24:05
Correct. There's only one batch in that year. And finally classic cars?
Ben O'Leary 24:10
Same as wine, high quality stuff that's finite.
Chris Conway 24:14
If you don't have an interest in it, just work the process. Well done. Alright, that was great. Gents. Quick Fire stuff. Finally, a question that came in for me via a slightly different channel didn't come in via the email. But it was nonetheless a question about something that I had spoken about on the podcast some time ago, and I'll refresh your memory Jensen was about when I was talking about the key risks in markets. And I had said that the Fed I didn't specifically state it but I innocuously ranked the Fed higher as a risk than the Ukraine war and a member very politely and well within their rights. Just send me a question saying I was interesting that you rated the Fed as a higher risk to markets. Then the Ukraine And I just wanted to create some context around this. I did write an article about it. But I would stand by that. So I look at risk. Also, as a matter of impact, I would say those two things are interchangeable risk doesn't necessarily have to be something bad risk has a connotation, I look at risk as equivalent to impact.
Ben O'Leary 25:19
Technically, risk is uncertainty. It doesn't have to be good or bad. It's just uncertainty.
Chris Conway 25:24
Sure. Good. That's a very good point, Ben. And I would say that across a number of dimensions that the Fed and more specifically, I want to get granular here, the price of money will have a bigger impact on financial markets, not the world, but financial markets than any war ever. Or just about any other event. The price of money controls every thing.
Ben O'Leary 25:51
And it differs, obviously, where you're located in the world, but for us in Australia, I think that's definitely true.
Ben O'Leary 25:57
Well, I. Well, again, I would humbly submit that it could it could be anywhere I have to think more about that could be any...
Ben O'Leary 26:04
If you're located closer to ongoing war that's got...
Chris Conway 26:09
I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. Yes, yes, yes. The dimensions that I'm talking about our size, scale, duration, collateral impact and opportunities that might follow from events, decisions, etc. And just pivoting back to the Fed tonight, let's not forget that there's trillions of dollars, trillions of dollars that are being mobilised under certain expectations. And that expectation is that the Fed will hike by 25 basis points. What happens if those trillions of dollars are positioned the wrong way? What happens then? What happens if the Fed does something that no one's expecting? What happens if Powell says something at the press conference that the market isn't expecting? What if the Fed has some data that they're going to release we're going to talk about that is that they're going to share and it's really going to upset markets. I would say that if they went 50 basis points tonight, markets could be down 5%. Tomorrow. Agree, I could say that, I would argue that if Powell says something a left of centre, markets could be 3%. in either direction.
Ben O'Leary 27:15
I'll just give you a little bit of context for the size. I've just done some quick Googling, because I find it took me a while to get my head around how big the bond market is. One market is what...
Chris Conway 27:24
20 times the size or something
Ben O'Leary 27:25
That gets thrown around by the Fed and wire money printing and rates and whatnot. And then that flows into equities. So the New York Stock Exchange is capitalised market capitalization about 27 trillion. And the estimation of the bond market. This is August 2020. So it's probably a bit larger now, again, considering how much money's been flowing into it. But that was 128 trillion.
Chris Conway 27:53
There you go.
Ben O'Leary 27:54
So 5/6 times.
Chris Conway 27:56
So yeah, huge. Thank you, Ben. That was a very good point. And then getting back to some of those other dimensions. So again, let's not forget the context here. And I was talking about it earlier, this is supposed to be the Fed ending, never before seen monetary policy, the experiment that we've seen over the last 15 years. This is supposed to be the Fed normalising and I'm saying here cozzia writes amid a strong US economy, so that next time the system comes under pressure, which it undoubtedly will things go in cycles, there are actually some tools in the toolkit so that they can fight the good fight. So there's a lot riding on this, and not just tonight, as I was saying earlier, but what the Fed does tonight and in future meetings, and what happens if the Fed gets it wrong, and the impacts that could be felt and will be felt for years by everyone around the world. Hopefully, the war will end soon enough. And that risk will dissipate. But the risk of the price of money being wrong will always be with us. It's the big one. And that's why the saying is you don't fight the Fed. So just wanted to provide some clarity, there was nothing in the way of certainly disrespecting the situation in Ukraine or the war that's being fought there or trying to marginalise the human impact. But in the world of finance, the price of money will always be the most important thing and have the biggest impact. And I would humbly submit comprise the greatest risk from any one moment to the next. So yeah, like I said, a perfectly legitimate and respectful question. And I just wanted to share my thoughts on that. So that wraps it up, guys. Thanks for a great session. That was actually really good. Well done Ben with ETFs bought on Tom with the buy, hold, sell and some clarification on you know, just what lenses you look through when you're conducting that analysis. So well done. Until next time, gents.
Ben O'Leary 29:48
See ya everyone.
Tom Wegner 29:49
See ya.
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